NFC Implant party at the Hackspace?

What do you think of the idea to arrange an event at the Hackspace where people who are interested can get NFC-tag implants?

The implants could be of this type (NTAG216) https://dangerousthings.com/shop/xnt-ntag216-2x12mm-glass-tag/ or whichever standard people would be interested in.

The injection itself is quick (many videos on youtube including for example this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9HcFxTM8hI )
The injection would obviously be performed by a fully licensed piercing professional.

Happy to help with the arrangement of such an event if there is an interest among the members
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Here are some videos on uses: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_CvXDTwsrU0_ls5moOgxjBWVzGQ4Qlfe

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I've got one of those tags from the crowdfunder that I haven't implanted. If you have or are someone with prior experience installing them, I'd be game.

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No no no pls god no.

Before doing this people need to think if they really want their ID being broadcasted to everyone who happens to brush past you in a crowd, or any inbuilt shop scanner with any sort of decent power.  Most NFC devices (phone, oyster, etc.) you can put a protector over or something, but are you going to subject people to wearing gloves all the time to stop people knowing exactly where you are and what you're doing at all times.

Every shop you go through, you'll be scanned, every time you visit the cinema or anything like that, they will be able to pick you up.  Think very carefully before being tagged with anything you don't have control over

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I'm pretty skeptical that any shop is going to set up specialized hardware - it's not as if commercial NFC readers work over distances of more than 5cm anyway - to capture the IDs of tags worn by a tiny fraction of 1% of the populace.

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A lot of the high end readers can already extend this to be usable by the security gates in shops, especially as we usually pass quite close to them going in/out of shops.  In the future Its not unreasonable to assume people will use higher powered readers for this purpose

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Why would a security gate in a shop use NFC? There are other RFID technologies in other frequency bands specifically designed for asset tracking.

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For idiots who stick a tracking chip in their hand maybe?

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Great! Lets see if there is any more person who is interested and we can discuss timing. And of course this must be in line with Hackspace rules etc.

Crys...
It is a totally voluntary thing to do, and I do not share your security concerns at all. Besides the fact that the tags in question can only be read at a very short distance due to the minimal antenna, there is no way for random shop to connect a NFC tag to a specific person. Most people carry multiple of these already on the keychain and in the wallet so there is an ocean of random noise. But the purpose of this question was not to discuss the technology in itself, but to check whether there was an interest to arrange an event around this interesting tech platform. 

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I've been considering this for a while, I'd be very interested in this. What's the estimated cost? How many people would need to be involved for this to be viable?

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Also very interested pending cost estomates

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Hey Hannes - sorry I didn't get back to you when you messaged me about this. I've already got one which I implanted myself, and I'd be happy to come along and provide moral/technical support!

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Are you going to have some sort of simple document which you get people to read and sign saying that they understand what is going on and were happy to accept any risks involved in having a 'foreign body' installed in their own personal body.  However trivial. It's one thing for people to experiment upon themselves (I certainly don't mind - have fun :-s) but another to offer it to a fairly open group of other people.

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Hi folks it seems there will be a big piece on chip implants in the Evening Standard tomorrow which is likely to generate further interest in implant tech.
What do you think should we take the opportunity to host an event and help bring greater understanding for implant tech?
One date which looks suitable would be Friday 2 October, what do you think is there someone who would be willing to help host something at that date?

A setup could be
1. Intro on the different uses for chip implants (in hacker/maker context)
2. Chipping of 1-2 volunteers
3. Open discussion on pros and cons and possible further uses

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If it's something that's likely to attract press interest and people unfamiliar with how the Hackspace works, I think it ought to be done with extreme care.

Do you already know who the volunteers will be?

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2nd October sounds good to me. I'd be happy to help.

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Embed said chip into a ring. Works much better and is probably more fun. 

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Kind of defeats the purpose, I already have an oyster card...

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I found the ergonomics much better than the card, so worth the hack. An implant is somewhat harder to reverse or repair. Given how fast technology moves I'd be concerned about implants going out of date fairly quickly and spending more time under the knife.

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I'd be keen for this, been wanting to get into a bit of bio hacking for a while. 2nd Oct sounds good!

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What chips are people using now? When I checked last it was hard to get hold of implant grade with higher memory without being an educational establishement.

I know one piercer who does it personally, and a second by reputation, if that's any help,

However, I make this offer for those, like those here, who have read and thought about it and done their research. I'm not sure inviting folk who've read an article in the Standard down to have the opportunity to make a rash decision is a kindness.

I speak as a fairly pierced person, with one medical implany, and prior experience reading the scientific literature on this matter.

Maybe a debate/discussion, and *then* a mass chipping when things have calmed down? I still wanna get chipped.

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PGP KeyID: 0x394490BF Hash: 2C2A CA28 3761 7D46 541A AE00 50D9 F1FA 3944 90BF

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Here's the article from the standard - it doesn't make any mention of the hackspace and its in the back pages so I don't think there will be a flurry of new people coming along to the event.

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How did the article come about Hannes?

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I would like to have a sub dermal chip implanted into my hand and
Bitcoin wallet programmed.  I am planning on purchasing a 13.56MHz
ISO14443A & NFC Type 2 NTAG216 RFID chipset pre loaded injection kit
from Dangerous Things.

I live in Hackney so if you know of any nearby body piercers who can
do the procedure please let me know.

I am thinking about having it crowd funded and am more than willing to
give a donation to the group for any help received.

Also if its possible to do using RFID I might do a multi crypto
currency wallet with a few different coins (LTC, ETH, BLK etc).

Any help would be very much appreciated.

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Metal-Morphosis body-piercing studio is just down from the Tesco's on Hackney Road.

They teach body piercing techniques and would be able to help with that side of things. A couple of friends studied there, and really recommended them.

You could also talk with the bio-hackers, as they met a couple of people at conferences who were working on implants.

You may also want to think about using methods for implanting chips, that will be optimised for removal/replacement. Considering Moore's Law, there will always be better versions out next year, so you will want to make it possible to upgrade them.

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Thanks for getting back to me.  I contacted MM but apparently their licence doesn't cover implants of this nature. 

 I also sent the bio hackers an email a few days ago and they pointed me to this group. 

Do you have the contact details of someone specific that might be in the know?

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Please could you pass on the details of the people you know who are able to do chip implants.  :)

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Thanks for getting back to me.  I contacted MM but apparently their licence doesn't cover implants of this nature. 

 I also sent the bio hackers an email a few days ago and they pointed me to this group. 

Do you have the contact details of someone specific that might be in the know?

They meet up regularly in the bio-lab, on a Wednesday evening.

I can't remember who mentioned it.

I think that one of the ones that they mentioned was http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-09/04/diy-biohacking/viewall

One thing you'll need to watch is the limitations on MRI scans afterwards.

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I have one of DT's kits from the crowdfunding round he ran, that I no longer want. Unused and unopened, of course. I'd be willing to sell it at a discount - $80?

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The biohacking/diybio/openbio group (however we're identifying) isn't really that involved in the body modification stuff. We're more about having a lab to do biotech related science stuff.
There may be associated folks who are also interested in this but it's not really part of our day to day general interest.

There's health and safety constraints in relation to the lab that mean we aren't involved in anything of that nature.
In terms of the hackspace in general, I would see this as perhaps a potentially new/separate group so there may be others around. I'd be interested to know what kind of chips they are and the benefit of having them implanted subdermally.
(Are they monitoring devices or just like those things you get your pets tagged with in case they go missing?)

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I personally want a chip installed so I can put encrypted private keys of Bitcoin and other crypto currencies on.  I have lost a few hundred quids worth of coins via hackers, forgotten passwords and lost paper wallets so sub dermal looks like it might help me secure my coins.

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Most NFC tags don't have enough space for something like that. And putting them in a device that can be read by anyone with an NFC reader doesn't seem like a bright idea, either.

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Can we have an NFC add on to the door bot to use mobiles to get in.  Preferably just to the side where someone might swipe an oyster and brush their hand by it?

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The doorbot already uses NFC. You can register any mifare/NFC compatible tag.

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I personally want a chip installed so I can put encrypted private keys of Bitcoin and other crypto currencies on.  I have lost a few hundred quids worth of coins via hackers, forgotten passwords and lost paper wallets so sub dermal looks like it might help me secure my coins.

Totally unrelated to an NFC implant, but you might want to looking into SSS - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamir's_Secret_Sharing

This would allow you to split your keys into many parts (For Example 10) and of those 10 parts you need any 4 to form the complete key. You can then loose some of your paper wallets, or some of your devices could get 'hacked', and you can still get the complete key. I've used it in the past and it does work.

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The chip we're on about can store 880 bytes, around this many characters:

sgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfgLKSJDFsgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfgLKSJDFsgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfgLKSJDFsgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfgLKSJDFsgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfgLKSJDFsgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfgLKSJDFsgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfgLKSJDFsgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfgLKSJDFsgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfgLKSJDFsgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfgLKSJDFsgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfgLKSJDFsgdfksgdfkjgsadfkjgsDKFJGskdjfgKSJDFGKLSAJGFLKJsgfkljSGADLKJGslkdfg

I am not 100% sure but I think NFC devices (or at least android NFC) scan code line by line with an identifier something like:

BITCOIN:jhSDVFKJASFL;Jsa;dk;kjBSDFKVdsfl;kLF

DOOR:asklgkdsafvlkaJDFKLJadbflkjabsdkfbKSADF
COFFEEMACHINE:yuhgchvjbkejsg'lsJgb>S?gj/k.fgnzD?b

I think Android takes the identifier and then associates it with an app which you can then launch.  I am sure I saw a video somewhere.  Might be wrong though.

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It's a little more complicated than that. An NFC tag can contain arbitrary data, including raw URIs; I'm not sure if Android would intepret those as intents when scanned or not.

More generally, they're usually formatted in NDEF format: http://developer.android.com/reference/android/nfc/tech/Ndef.html. This adds some overhead, but permits multiple data records for different applications on a single tag.

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For me I want to store Bitcoin and other crypto currencies on my left hand and the right I am leaving open for experiments.  I am getting my own place next year and am planning on installing a dual pin and nfc entry system.  I might set up my laptop to use NFC for login and am also toying with the idea of building an electronic cigarette box mod that won't fire unless the NFC is detected.  I am also sure as time goes by i'll think of other ways to utilize the chips.  As far as the chipset is concerned the details are on the Dangerous Things website:  https://dangerousthings.com/shop/xnt-ntag216-2x12mm-glass-tag/

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I am crowd funding the project on Startjoin which has already gotten 11% funding in just 36 hours(ish)

There is a detailed description of what it is exactly I am trying to achieve on the project page:  https://www.startjoin.com/Implant

Instead of going it alone maybe we could make an event of it at Hackspace and have the artist implant me in the workshop?

I am getting this done so might as well do it in the company of interested parties.

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Hi all, Long time I have not been in the group. 

I have got my implant  yesterday. and I am lucky enough to know two of the people that work no these implants to make them better and more secure! 

Is this meeting still going to happen..  

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This thread hasn't been posted to in a year and a half. I suspect you
will need to organize a new meeting. 

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